‘Often, money difficulties are the proverbial tip of the iceberg’
Financial Psychotherapist Vicky Reynal tells Jon Sutton about the themes in her new book; plus an extract.
09 May 2024
Tell me how your background, with an MBA sandwiched between a Psychology degree and a Psychotherapy postgrad, led you to focus on money and mind.
The reasons why I did this mix of degrees is a long story, but I was fascinated by their intersection. It was no surprise that during the MBA we did a course that incorporated psychology (behavioural finance). I was surprised, however, when in my psychotherapy degree I found so few papers about our relationship with money, bar a handful of articles that spoke about the therapy fee and what it represented. Money is ubiquitous and we all have a different and unique relationship with it. Many of us consciously or unconsciously use it as a symbolic object, to act out emotional issues. It felt like a gap worth addressing.
You don't go into depth about your personal story, but it's clear that your father's 'financial tragedy' has shaped you as well. But I assume you don't think that's unusual?
It was intellectual curiosity that sparked my interest in this subject. But it also had emotional relevance for me and that is the bit that has fuelled my passion for unpacking it, understanding it, researching it.
Our parent's relationship with money inevitably shapes ours. Experiencing financial loss is one of many experiences that shape our attitude to spending, saving, risk-taking, etc. In the US there have been papers written on the 'money scripts' that we inherit – what did our parents teach us about money? What experiences did we have with money? I wanted to write a book that goes beyond this because in my experience, the over-spender doesn't overspend because that's what their parents did. They are trying to address yearnings, fears that might be completely unrelated to money: they could be trying to fight off a fear of feeling left out, or trying to gain credibility, etc. So it's not just our money experiences, but our wider experiences that could be influencing our relationships with money.
The Freud quote you use in the intro is interesting – 'Money matters are treated by civilized people in the same way as sexual matters – with the same inconsistency, prudishness and hypocrisy.' Do you see any signs of that changing, for either the better or worse?
British people still prefer to talk about sex, religion and politics with family and friends before they talk about money. So Freud's quote is still valid. Things are slowly changing for the better. There are organisations doing important work to promote financial literacy – if money is taught in schools it's a start. There is a strong movement to empower women with financial knowledge which will make the topic less embarrassing/scary/anxiety-provoking. Knowledge breeds confidence and lessens anxiety (which is a barrier to talking about it). Pay transparency to fight the gender pay gap is also a step in the right direction. I am hoping my weekly column and my book, will add a note in the emerging symphony normalising 'money talk'.
If you advertise yourself as a Financial Psychotherapist, do you think that puts some potential clients off, either due to perceived breadth of expertise or potential cost?!
I am sure it will put some potential clients off. But I am more focused on those who would have never sought therapy for their difficulty with money, and now have a safe space to go to. You don't know how many of the enquiry emails I receive start with 'I never knew I could see a therapist about this…'. The reality is that any psychodynamic psychotherapist could help people think about money symbolically (i.e. what are they using it for?), but people don't know that. Calling myself 'financial psychotherapist' is a way of breaking a taboo and raising awareness.
Do you ever find it monotonous to work exclusively with financial psychotherapy clients?
There is no monotony in this work: everyone is different. Two clients struggling, for example, with gambling could be doing it for completely different reasons: one to win, the other to lose; one to defy their internalised father, the other in the hope to be proven special/lucky. Also, often, money difficulties are the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Once we begin to unpack the money difficulties, many clients decide to stay in therapy to address other aspects of their lives.
We've had a lot of coverage of poverty in our pages, and one of the main things I've learned is how lack of money negatively impacts cognition and decision making, effectively putting you into a downward spiral. Do you see this with your clients? And do you see a negative impact on cognition of too much money?
The threat of lack or real lack of money, activate primal fears in us that are paralysing. It can bring us to dark, hopeless places in our minds. This is because money is, in practice linked to our survival. My clients can afford therapy, so their desperation is not linked to survival. If they have faced huge financial losses for example, it's a symbolic fear of what, in their minds, they have lost alongside the money. If they tied feelings of self-worth to financial worth, when money is gone it's as if a part of them is lost with it.
With regards to 'too much money' – while I don't like generalising, I find that the focus is often on the accumulation of more money, or the preoccupations become more existential: questions about the meaning of life, of 'what is the point' of everything?
As problematic relationships with aspects of ourselves and our lives go, how amenable to change is our relationship with money?
I think it's possible – I wouldn't be doing this job otherwise! We can't fundamentally change who we are, but we can learn to make (financially) healthier choices or to manage the destructive/masochistic (etc.) parts of us. We can learn to cope with our loneliness, for example, in different ways than shopping; we can gradually step out of our comfort zone or familiar patterns; we can, through therapy, build a stronger sense of deservedness or agency which will have an impact on how we use money.
A key quote seems to be 'many of us hope money will satisfy longings that were there even before we ever knew what money was'. If it often actually can, is your work more about just being aware of those symbolic relationships?
I am not sure it really can satisfy those longings – we might live with a temporary illusion that money could buy us love, or help us feel worthy/important/powerful, but the feelings are short-lived. It doesn't last. People often come to therapy when they are starting to get a sense of the shortcomings of their strategy: 'actually, money didn't help me feel important because now I feel like an impostor'; 'actually, even if more people want to hang out with me now that I have money, they aren't the meaningful relationships I was really craving'. Think of the over-eater, can that void they are trying to fill ever be filled with food?
What would you pick out as the most prevalent psychological problem people have around money, and what would be the most problematic?
Overspending is probably the most prevalent money behaviour and financial anxiety the most prevalent emotion related to money, fuelled by the fact that most of us haven't been taught about money management growing up and lack of knowledge breeds anxiety. The most problematic ones I would say are financial abuse – because of how desperately stuck victims feel and often are in reality – and addictions (spending, gambling, trading), for the same reason.
Can you give another example of the kinds of issues you encounter?
I have met clients whose businesses struggled because of their difficulty invoicing clients (ie: receiving money for their services) or who wouldn't accept money from a wealthy family member even if in real financial need or those who give, give, give and struggle to accept in return. These aren't money problems, these point us to a broader and deeper struggle: maybe they don't feel deserving of 'good things,' maybe their blueprint for a relationship is one in which they give more than they receive because ultimately, that's the price they need to pay to feel loved. In some cases, it's a fear of being controlled by the other if they take what's on offer, having a blueprint of relationships in which giving comes with strings attached.
Your three key principles for shifting your attitude towards money are self-exploration with a curious not critical mindset; gathering information with depth and creativity; and reassessing and expanding your choices. Which would you say is the one where you can add most value as a financial psychotherapist, and how to you draw on all of your background in doing that?
It might sound simplistic, but the most valuable thing a therapist can help you with is to 'see what you are doing' – to help you see that you are, for example, addressing your fear of abandonment through your spending; or that the part of you that feels unlovable is in the driving seat when you spend, etc. The value is not in the cognitive/rational 'knowing', but in getting to an emotional place in therapy in which you can really get in touch with those fears (which usually date back to childhood experiences) so they can be worked through until they no longer have such a grip on you (and your choices) in the present.
How's your own 'financial emotional awareness' now? Has it changed through writing the book?
Writing the book gave me a reason to deep-dive into the topic. I read authors I hadn't read before, case studies that resonated. However, the majority of the work was done in my own therapy years ago, in which I tried to make sense of what money had meant to me in the past and what meaning I wanted it to give it going forward.
Money on Your Mind: The Psychology Behind Your Financial Habits, by Vicky Reynal, is published by Bonnier Books Ltd. The following extract is reproduced with their kind permission.
When a psychotherapist thinks about your relationship with money, they might start with what the problem seems to be in the present, but they will have an 'investigative toolkit' that will attempt to reach for the unconscious feelings and thoughts that might sit behind this behaviour, trying to unpack what might be yearned for or defended against.
◆ A difficulty with overspending could actually be about a desire to fit in.
◆ A difficulty with spending money could be about our low feelings of self-worth.
◆ A pattern of keeping money secrets could be about an inner sense of shame.
◆ A gambling addiction could actually be about punishing our parents for being neglecting.
[…]
How we view ourselves / our sense of worth
Our relationship with our primary caregivers shapes our sense of self: from the initial bonding between mother and infant, the experiences of being held, fed and changed, to all later interactions (how they respond to us, how they encourage us, how they express their anger towards us). These are all experiences that influence our sense of how lovable/able we are.
A baby that is responded to with smiles, who is held tenderly, whose needs are adequately interpreted and met by its parents will develop a sense that they are worthy of love, that they have valuable qualities, and develop a sense of trust that the world is a safe place to live in. A neglected baby will grow up with a very different sense of self: they might see themselves as undesirable, unlovable, incapable. The world might be experienced as a
threatening, dangerous place in which they feel vulnerable.
[…]
The accumulation of these experiences adds up to a consolidating sense of how we feel about ourselves. Do we feel deserving of good things (like love or money)? Can we allow ourselves to have and enjoy a compliment, a dessert, a loving partner, as well as the good things that money can buy? Money could be hard to have and enjoy because our past experiences have left us feeling that we are 'not good enough' to merit them and so we act in a way that interferes with financial success and with having a balanced approach to money: we might give it away, spend it too quickly, or hoard it in the hope it will boost our self-esteem.
For many people the struggle to have, enjoy or treasure anything good may be pervasive. They are tormented by shame and feelings of unworthiness. They may momentarily allow themselves to have something good but then can't enjoy it, expect to lose it ('it's too good to be true, it won't last'), or sabotage it somehow. They might feel guilt when they eat, or feel like an imposter when they achieve anything. I will give you examples of people with this kind of predisposition in the underspending and the self-sabotage chapters, where we will meet those who would rather financially self-destruct or become 'money anorexic' than allow themselves to have and enjoy money.
[…]
How the world will respond to us / our sense of agency
The many experiences that shape who we become also shape our sense of agency and our expectations of how we'll be received and responded to in the world. These are both essential to our ability to succeed financially but also to feeling we have agency in the management of our finances.
From early infant-mother interactions, our early relationships shape our expectations of how the world responds to us. As Jungian analysts Deborah C. Stewart, Lisa Marchiano and Joseph R. Lee discuss in their episode 'The Money Complex' in the This Jungian Life podcast, if an infant turns to the breast to find that the breast is offered in return, they will grow up with a sense that when they reach for something, the world responds favourably.
A mother who gives enough experiences to her child of being emotionally present, attuned and responsive will help the child not only feel worthy, safe and cared for, but will also instil a sense in them that their needs can be met (they are both acceptable and satisfiable). The accumulation of such experiences plays a fundamental part in perpetuating our sense of agency. In order to build a career, or set out on a business venture, we need a certain amount of faith that the world will respond positively to us. Sitting in front of a client pitching an idea with confidence requires a critical mass of experiences in which whoever the recipient of our message was, responded to it with interest or, at the very least, declined with respect. If this hasn't been the case, we'll either avoid these situations (and be modest in our pursuits) or be overwhelmed by anxiety when faced with them.
Growing up with very critical parents, but also critical teachers/coaches can result in us, as adults, carrying fears that the other (whoever that might be), will be rejecting, critical or judgemental. So we might avoid interactions, or find it hard to trust others when it comes to money, and we might hear that voice in our heads (the 'superego' in psychoanalytic terms) telling us we are ungrateful asking for a pay rise. Or we might shy away from risk because we expect negative outcomes or criticism, not encouragement or support.
Financial wellbeing is hard to achieve without trust in our ability to influence and change our situation through our choices. What happens when we go for something? Do we expect criticism and shaming? Do we expect our requests to generally be granted or denied? If we don't feel we can influence others we can't feel the needed sense of agency that is essential for financial wellbeing.
How we behave in relationships
Our upbringing will also influence how we are in relationships and what we expect from others. This is very relevant to our Financial Emotional Awareness because:
1. It can help us identify some of the unconscious expectations we have of others when it comes to relationships, which often get translated into financial expectation.
◆ Do we expect to give more than we receive (and end up in relationships in which we are financially supporting our partner too)?
◆ Do we expect equality in every aspect of the relationship (and therefore seek equal division of anything from parental responsibilities to financial contributions)?
◆ Are we used to, and therefore expect to find, dynamics in which we are controlled (and unconsciously end up relinquishing control easily when it comes to our finances)?
2. It can also help us identify when we are using money to communicate something about our needs, fears and desires beyond the financial.
◆ For example, are we asking for a more generous gift when, really, we want more affection?
◆ Are we complaining about our partner's excessive travel expenses when we are really worried about their increasing absence and feel emotional distance?
Money conflicts abound in relationships and trying to resolve them simply by addressing differences in money views and values would be short-sighted: a lot of money conflicts are not about money at all. Understanding what emotions sit behind our money conversations will improve our sense of financial wellbeing as well as our relationships.
There is no doubt that how we related to our parents and how they related to one another influences how we relate to others.Sometimes we re-enact money behaviours and relationship dynamics we experienced in our families without being aware of the repetition we are unconsciously enabling. […]
We can't think of money in relationships without thinking about ourselves in relationships: what emotional baggage are we bringing to it? How is this likely to influence our behaviour in relation to our partner?
[…]
Fears and longings
I will often come back to the idea that we are unconsciously seeking to fulfil, through money, emotional longings or address fears and insecurities rooted in past experiences.
Love is a big driver behind the pursuit of money. But not the only one. Longings to be taken seriously, to be noticed by a parent, to have an approving nod or pat on the back might be driving our pursuit for more. Painful experiences of loss, deprivation and abandonment may leave us with a desire to hold on to things tightly, worried they'll be gone or taken away again, and money can give us an outlet for expressing the desire to hold on. We cannot understand money behaviours using purely rational or cognitive tools. Sometimes the answer is not in whatever 'money lessons' we picked up at home or in society, but deeper within us: in our most profound desires and fears.
We are complex beings, and our behaviours are driven by an intricate set of emotional, cognitive factors shaped by our personalities and our history. The way we are with money could be linked to 'phantasies' we have been holding on to for years. A 'phantasy' (spelled different from 'fantasy' to differentiate it from the ordinary use of the word) refers to, in psychoanalytic literature, imagined scenarios that involve unconscious content (desires, fears, conflicts). For example, we might hold a phantasy and desire that more money will get us more love, or a phantasy and fear that people's envy can actually be destructive, or one that we are invincible. Accessing phantasies is helpful because it allows us to better understand our inner world and our motivations.
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